Some Context for the Saying, “It’s Turtles All the Way Down”
What do we mean when we say it’s “Turtles All the Way Down”?
“Turtles All the Way Down” is an expression that refers to the concept of infinite regress, or the idea that any explanation always requires a further explanation. The phrase is often used to illustrate the problem of explaining the nature of the universe and its origins.
The expression originates from a story, which has been attributed to different sources over time, but is often linked to the philosopher and mathematician Bertrand Russell. In the story, a scientist gives a lecture about the Earth’s position in the universe. An elderly woman in the audience argues that the Earth is actually supported on the back of a giant turtle. When asked what the turtle is standing on, she replies that it’s another turtle. When pressed further, she insists that it’s “turtles all the way down.”
The story highlights the challenge of grounding any explanation in a solid foundation. It’s often used to critique cosmological and philosophical theories that lack a clear starting point or grounding principle, as well as to emphasize the importance of questioning our assumptions and seeking a deeper understanding.
“Like the old woman in the story who described the world as resting on a rock, and then explained that rock to be supported by another rock, and finally when pushed with questions said it was “rocks all the way down,” he who believes this to be a radically moral universe must hold the moral order to rest either on an absolute and ultimate should or on a series of shoulds “all the way down.” — William James, “Rationality, Activity and Faith”
In the U.S. Supreme Court case Rapanos v. United States (2006), Justice Antonin Scalia used a variation of the “turtles all the way down” phrase in his plurality opinion. Rapanos v. United States dealt with the scope of the Clean Water Act and the jurisdiction of the Army Corps of Engineers and Environmental Protection Agency over certain wetlands.
“In our favored version, an Eastern guru affirms that the earth is supported on the back of a tiger. When asked what supports the tiger, he says it stands upon an elephant; and when asked what supports the elephant he says it is a giant turtle. When asked, finally, what supports the giant turtle, he is briefly taken aback, but quickly replies ‘Ah, after that it is turtles all the way down.’”
In his opinion, Scalia criticized the agencies’ interpretation of their jurisdiction as overly broad and vague, essentially arguing that their approach could lead to an infinite extension of regulatory authority. He wrote:
“Under the plurality’s ‘significant nexus’ test, lower courts would have to perform… Herculean labor to evaluate the evidence for and against federal jurisdiction, only to be told that everything is relevant and nothing is dispositive. It is the familiar problem of the hairsbreadth circularity, or, in the more picturesque expression of an earlier day, ‘turtles all the way down.’”
In this context, Justice Scalia used the “turtles all the way down” phrase to emphasize the difficulty in determining a clear limit to the agencies’ jurisdiction under their interpretation of the Clean Water Act.
Reference: Rapanos v. United States, 547 U.S. 715 (2006). The full opinion can be accessed at https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/05pdf/04-1034.pdf
Then Sturgill Simpson released his song “Turtles All the Way Down” in 2014. John Green released his book with the same title in 2017. And the saying was in our mouths and minds again.
This all reminds me of the Iroquois origin myth:
[https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/big-history-project/what-is-big-history/origin-stories/a/origin-story-iroquois]
“Then they swam to the Great Turtle, master of all the animals, who at once called a council.
When all the animals had arrived, the Great Turtle told them that the appearance of a woman from the sky was a sign of good fortune. Since the tree had earth on its roots, he asked them to find where it had sunk and bring up some of the earth to put on his back, to make an island for the woman to live on.
The swans led the animals to the place where the tree had fallen. First Otter, then Muskrat, and then Beaver dived. As each one came up from the great depths, he rolled over exhausted and died. Many other animals tried, but they experienced the same fate.
At last the old lady Toad volunteered. She was under so long that the others thought she had been lost. But at last she came to the surface and before dying managed to spit out a mouthful of dirt on the back of the Great Turtle.
It was magical earth and had the power of growth. As soon as it was as big as an island, the woman was set down on it. The two white swans circled it, while it continued to grow, until, at last, it became the world island as it is today, supported in the great waters on the back of the Turtle.”
Additional References:
Russell, B. (1959). My Philosophical Development. London: George Allen & Unwin. In this book, Bertrand Russell mentions the anecdote of the woman who believes the Earth is supported by a giant turtle, and the story has since become associated with him.
Hawking, S. W. (1988). A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes. New York: Bantam Books. Stephen Hawking also refers to the “turtles all the way down” anecdote in this popular science book, which aims to explain complex concepts in cosmology for a general audience.
Sorensen, R. (2009). Infinite Regress Arguments. In E. N. Zalta (Ed.), The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Winter 2009 Edition). Retrieved from https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/infinite-regress/. This encyclopedia article provides a comprehensive overview of the concept of infinite regress and how it relates to various philosophical issues, including the “turtles all the way down” expression.
